mk->> Does South Downs EF! work with any other groups? I mean, is there any networking or cross-over between groups here?

Jess->> About five or six years ago, the road protest thing did seem very much more kind of flowery hippie-ish, it was so naive and unrealistic. But now especially, there's a hell of a lot more cross-over. For instance in Brighton, with the June the 18th organizing thing there's EF! groups, all the hunt sab groups, animal rights groups, all the different things, everyone's coming together to work on this. People are making the connections now that it's all part of the same shitty machine. And it's good. People are still specializing in their things, which is good, because people need to become expert at their particular enemy. But they're also working together and sharing skills, which is something that didn't happen for a long time. There was very much a sort of aloofness between various groups, but it's certainly broken down a hell of a lot now, and now people are just sort of like, I mean I hate the term activist, but they are basically activists rather than hunt sabs or this or that. People get involved in everything, it is spreading a lot more.

Jon->> If you look at the June 18th national thing in London, simultaneously in the same square mile on the same day as part of a global action you've got care workers who've been on strike, you've got animal rights activists, you've got people fighting the arms trade, you've got people involved in helping fight casualization of jobs, you've got people in kind of EF! direct action circles, you've got quite a lot of people in the transport sector, you've got most of the major areas and focal points of resistance over the last six, seven years, from the workplace to the streets to the community. All of those are now involved. They're still quite small, these groups, they're growing. Still quite small, but they're all now unified and organizing together, which is a first as far as I know, at least since the early '80s.

Jess->> Yeah, there has been a few other major points, I'm thinking something like RTS, which is a far more young activist kind of organization doing stuff with people like the Liverpool dockers, who are sort of older generation militant working class. And people sharing skills and understanding each other. And that kind of thing is growing a hell of a lot. At the June the 18th thing you've got what have been staunchly insular working class dockers and stuff like that. People who, although we've all been talking about "We're fighting the same battle," there hasn't been any crossover with in the past, now all coming together and working together. And that kind of thing can only be good.

Liz->> I think it is still quite limited, because obviously there's lots of limitations on that. Just from the methods, for example. A lot of striking workers don't want to take direct action in the sense of action actions because it'll just get them to lose their jobs forever, or whatever. So obviously that's kind of limited. I think there seems to be only one way to deal with taking joint action, but there are other ways of communicating with these groups and organizing with these groups and showing solidarity with each other that isn't explored enough, I don't think, and could be more.

mk->> Do you feel there's been any sort of recognition of that, have people been talking about this, and trying to figure it out?

Liz->> Yeah, yeah, definitely. For example, this thing about RTS and the Liverpool Dockers doing joint action, which actually was in support. I think it's not only action in support because that can be quite limited, but also getting involved in industrial disputes in other ways. For example, the boring ways, like fund-raising, talking, organizing certain sort of relief activities, kind of really boring things, not very sexy. Obviously, if you feel there is an affinity there, if you feel there's the same struggles, you should be supporting them in as many ways as possible and actually getting involved with it.

Jess->> That has been going on for quite a while, though, that kind of supporting role. I just remember during the Miners' strike, during the Wapping strike, that punk bands would do benefits gigs for striking communities in the area. But this I felt was kind of different in that it was actually dockers doing something that dockers wouldn't normally do, which is, you know, have a street party. More that the older generation are coming to us. 'Cause for years, when I got involved in politics it was all still, people doing the same tired old ways of protesting of their forebears kind of thing. When I grew up anarchism was a kind of Freedom Bookshop type people who were just all anarchosyndicalist, trade unionists, strikes, kind of thing. And we would just be following in their footsteps and getting frustrated 'cause we were getting nowhere. And then this thing was a sort of example of them suddenly learning from the younger generation, a sort of, I don't know what's the word, but paradigm shift or something in a way.

Jon->> It's always everyone going on about the links that have been made and everything, but it's mostly a unity that came out of weakness really, isn't it? Because they were deserted by their own union, and so they weren't on strike, properly, 'cause it wasn't a union strike, and basically, they just got sacked. It wasn't a Liverpool dockers strike, it was Liverpool-dockers-people-who've-been-sacked thing.

Ozzie->> Lockout.

Jon->> Yeah, a lockout I suppose. I read something that said this recently, it said that ten, fifteen years ago if five hundred Liverpool dockers had been sacked, all the ports in the country would've been shut down and the economy would've ground to a halt. Whereas nowadays, five hundred Liverpool dockers get sacked and no one . . . .

Jess->> There isn't any other ports to go on strike!

Jon->> And so that's the difference is that virtue made out of necessity.

Jess->> I'd agree with what you're saying about the unsexy things weren't being done. I mean, they were being done quite a lot, especially the Liverpool Dockers, but by other groups older than us with more resources. Basically the whole direct action scene that came out of road protest and things like that and EF! which is what most of us come from. We're young, most of us don't have children, most of us don't have mortgages and things like that to worry about, most of us don't have that level of responsibility. We can get arrested, we can have minor fines. So in the past dockers would unify and close down ports, as you said, in support of Liverpool Dockers. Now that's not the situation, because they've been defeated basically, and so the only people that can go and close down those docks are us, because we've got that labor power and that ability and that time and that space and that resource of basically being free from any form of riches or responsibility to do it. Poverty becomes, on that level, our strength. And I think that one can talk about making interlinked groups, although I think RTS has had the actions, as had sabs, as has practically anybody involved in the kind of youth radical scene for ages really. The real struggle at the moment is cross-generational stuff. And it's basically everybody who was involved in politics before '85 or was turned off by it, by authoritarian politics, trying to get them involved because, especially in Britain, where the youth population is so small, 16% or so, and decreasing, young people are basically socially irrelevant as a radical revolutionary force.

mk->> In RTS, for instance, a lot of people we've talked to have been talking about the fact that they want to come up with new ideas on how to expand on what they were doing instead of just having a street party every single time.

Jon->> I get the impression that they've been doing that for several years now. I mean, practically since they invented the idea of the street party they've been trying to get away from it. It's being a victim of your own success, you come up with an idea that's really, really good, and then you can't escape it because it's so good that you can't think of anything better than that to do. And so, the June 18th thing is in a way, well I dunno. The way I see it is it's sort of the latest attempt to come up with something that isn't exactly a street party. They did the global street party thing last year, which was trying to have street parties simultaneously everywhere, then they did a localized street party a few months later when they had parties in north and south London at the same time. So, they're trying to localize it a bit more, instead of having one big, big party it was all these local ones. And they had the social justice march with the dockers which turned into the street party in Trafalgar Square.

Jess->> What they've been trying to do is escape from the street party thing, not entirely successfully.

Jon->> It's the same with June the 18th, I mean it's like they're caught in a sort of double bind, 'cause they want to escape from it being a street party, and so they say, "No there'll be autonomous actions, lots of different things happening, lots of things happening all over the world, not a street party, definitely, nope, not a street party." But then on the other hand if they want to get the numbers to come, they have to publicize it more or less as a street party, so the Carnival has now become a really big thing, and all the posters have RTS written on them in big letters, because that's the way that you get the thousands of people to show up that you need.

Jon->> South Downs Earth First! is one of the groups that's been going for longest in the network, from the end of 1991. And in many ways it's the same as all the groups around the country in the sense that it has a very virtual existence. There was a specific decision in the network as a whole around '92-'93, by looking at leftist organizations and authoritarian environmental organizations like FoE who did very much label all campaigns, including campaigns which were mostly populated by local people, that we would not do that. That we'd purposely downplay our existence, and instead of trying to grow as groups or even as a network we'd try to get people to replicate our forms of action and our ideas. So it's not really the case of, does EF! work with RTS or with this group? 'Cause in reality it's all a large amorphous group of friends around the country who change hats and change identities depending on what particular's going at that time. Really, the names of the groups are almost irrelevant.

Jess->> South Downs EF! has led the way in non-existence! [Laughs]

Alex->> I think it's not the same around the rest of the country. I mean, I lived in Brighton during that too and I think it definitely had an existence as a group, as a lot more concrete group for a particular period of time. And then over a couple of years there were a series of events and people drifting off, various groups were involved in different projects. So yeah, it become nothing more than a mailing address, and sort of an accumulation of friends that did stuff under different banners, different hats. But I think probably it has mutated in some shape or form into the June the 18th group, pretty much.

mp->> What kind of collective organization works best for you?

Alex->> Small friendship groups are the best for me every single time, have been the most fun, active, the best on every possible level. Whether that's been the small group that's quite clearly defined and not working as a group that's open, or whether it's turned out to be a small friendship group within a much bigger group that that does have that sort of public identity and public name, it depends. But definitely, I can't see any other forms of organization work particularly well, or not at the moment.

Jess->> It seems that the ecological movement is going that way, doesn't it? In the same way that a hunt sab group will just consist of a solid core of just ten or eleven people. They're all working together all the time, and they're networking with all the other groups around the country. I know in the ecological scene at the moment, there's a whole load of movement towards this affinity group kind of thing. Just working as small groups on small actions, which is what hunt sabbing has always done naturally anyway without it being named as an affinity group. And I think to an extent some of the eco-action things have been limited by the fact that they've been these huge organized things, in that it's very difficult to control something like that. The amount of planning leaves far more room for error with a huge group of people. So it is sort of naturally downsizing into these smaller groups, like setting up eco-sab groups, just autonomous van-loads of eco-sabs going around doing stuff in the same way that hunt sab groups have. It's far harder to be rumbled, infiltrated, you can decide things on the spur of the moment when you get in the van as to where you're going, there's no need for using phones or post, or any of the other ways that they can find out what you're up to.

Jon->> It was basically along those lines first, going along to actual places of struggle, places which were going to be destroyed, beautifully viable areas teeming with life, seeing them trashed and then basically militantly going out and trashing the fuck out of things, and blockading things, and every day carrying out that exciting action. And that really got me going, and that level of community that grows, other people can talk about that better than I can.

Ozzie->> Are you talking about anti-roads camps?

Jon->> I'm talking about anti-road camps, yeah, and I think actually people should know that's probably where most people have got involved, rather than the EF! networking groups.

Ozzie->> I think a quite appropriate tactic, or it wasn't a conscious tactic, it was just one of the most effective things in wrong-footing the authorities, has been total chaos, not knowing what you're gonna do the next minute and they'll never know. It's not that implausible. I mean, that's how most anti-roads camps have worked over the years, although that's sort of died down now. But it's been a very good way of wrong-footing people.

mp->> It's interesting though because a lot of current anarchist literature has this ideal of spontaneity and disorganization. But I guess what's impressive is that it works. I've gone to or been involved with tons of things where everyone's like, "Oh, let's not have a plan and let's just see where we go." And nothing happens and it just falls apart. What amazes me is that operating in a spontaneous and a decentralized way people are actually getting things done. So, I think there's got to be something additional that's not captured by just the idea of spontaneity, that actually enables things to be successful.

Alex->> There's probably a fair few examples of spontaneity and chaos not working.

Ozzie->> I'm talking specifically about anti-roads actions. Spontaneity works on various actions. But I don't think spontaneity is an amazingly good tactic say with June 18th, for example, or something like that.

Jon->> My personal opinion is that the thing that it works with is groups of people that are living in close contact. That can talk to each other the whole time. Spontaneity there can work, but unless you have that structure in place, like for example, you can't spontaneously meet in the pub to discuss spontaneously going to do an action. There's a lot more pre-planning and preparation.

Ozzie->> Well, I'm talking specifics, I'm not talking about . . . .

Jon->> Yeah, no, I just replied to that's why I think it works for that and not other stuff.

Ozzie->> Yeah. It's a lot less complicated too, I mean if there's a bit of machinery over there, right, and they've left it there, or there's a security guard there, you can just go up there and trash it. It doesn't take much thinking about really.

Jon->> Specifically with anti-road stuff, and in general in those circles, I think the great stroke of genius has been having loads of people who beyond any level of sense or rationality are just up for it. In the darkness really, or during the day just going and occupying stuff. I mean, one can be consumed in planning as we are thankfully for June 18th, but for that kind of spontaneous action it really is just kind of fire, imagination and kind of collective wooo-ooo!

Ozzie->> People do fit into certain roles, as well, on an action. It's just like affinity groups again, living in close proximity to people, you know what they're going to do. So, on those spontaneous actions you know what people are going to do, so it just works in that way.

mk->> So, there's some firm foundation of intimacy basically among people, that they actually know each other, know how people are going to react?

Ozzie->> Has to be a basis for spontaneity.

mk->> And spontaneity grows out of that?

Jess->> Yeah, people working with each other. It's always happened with us anyway.

Miles->> There's a couple of sort of obvious examples that you could look at when things have been really inspiring and totally spontaneous. And other times when things have been totally amazing and really, really planned. And the really spontaneous one was two and a half years ago now. There was a rally in Newbury, and it was supposed to be sort of hold hands around the fence, tie ribbons onto it. And it ended up in massive arson because people just seized the opportunity to take control of the compound. The cops were totally swamped and didn't quite know how to react to it. And another one was the M41 street party when 10,000 people occupied the road and the road was dug up, and trees from the pathway of the M41 were planted in the road. And loads and loads of planning went into organizing that. But then, at the same time, it sort of crosses back over again. A lot of planning went into getting people to Newbury and for a massive trashing thing for a few days before hand, and sort of rode off that. And then the M41 was really, really, really planned. I wasn't actually there, but as I understand it, the only reason that the road was actually taken was because of the spontaneity and how the crowd behaved on the day. They got around the police diversions and the actual planned route for taking the road didn't happen, and it was up to the crowd. So it sort of crosses over.

Alex->> The interplay of planning and spontaneity.

Ozzie->> Mob rule!

Alex->> Well, no. I mean, 'cause if you just planned things, and no one was ever prepared to do anything spontaneous that wasn't in the plan, then it'd be fucked, wouldn't it?

Jess->> You'd be in the Socialist Worker's Party, wouldn't you!

Alex->> "That's not on the plan, I'm not doing that!" I mean, so that would never work. Likewise, if you could never ever plan anything then you might perhaps be limited as well. Even if you are just people who know each other meeting down the pub, and saying, "Hey, let's go and trash that thing over there," that's still planning to an extent.

Ozzie->> That's a bit like saying, "Let's walk over there," is planning, though.

Jon->> It's also about the actual environment of the struggle. If you were doing support work with some striking dockers, and you got a group together and you had to politicize them first, and then you went out and trashed something, that process would take a long time. Whereas ecological stuff, in Britain, it's raw. You can get people who haven't been experienced before, haven't gone through a long process of politicization and radicalization. Get them somewhere that looks totally trashed, real pain, gut wrenching horror of destroyed areas, and they're just gonna go wildly insane. And I think that's been largely the strength of it. So, it's been very simple. You've seen the state in fluorescent yellow clobber, coming up against green nature and resistance. And that's very clear.

 

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• Liverpool Dockers
  Dock workers that went on strike protesting inhuman conditions & the privatization of dock work against the Merseyside Docks Co., all without the backing of their official union, who betrayed every principle of solidarity & declared the strike "illegal." Their actions eventually had international consequences as dockworkers from around the world rallied in solidarity with their cause with work stoppages, cargo refusal, strikes & sitdowns. Down side is, they never got hired back on.
  
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• M41 Action
  A momentous RTS street carnival on July 13, 1996, attended by 10,000 people, during which a short stretch of London motorway was occupied. All day and late into the night, people partied, juggled, ate, chatted, danced, and played in a temporary sandbox in the fast-lane Huge colorful banners hung across the six-lane highway, and creativity ran amok, though one creative and transformative action should be noted in particular: Hidden under the skirts of two huge carnivalesque bag-pipe-playing figures in towering wigs, people dug up the tarmac and planted saplings in the road. The message was clear and the transformation tangible: trees not roads. The Highways Agency was forced to close the road for several days afterwards in order to resurface it. This action received an extremely serious response by law enforcement.
  
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